Meg Russell and James Robertson - Evidence in Review
The Commission met with Meg Russell, Professor of British and Comparative Politics and Director of the Constitution Unit at UCL, and with James Robertson from the Sortition Foundation, on 25 October 2022.
Meg Russell
Meg Russell began by talking about parliamentary structures around the world, based on her research on the topic. There are 79 parliaments with second chambers and 111 that are unicameral. At the most recent count, 21 of the second chambers were wholly directly elected, 15 wholly indirectly elected (elected by elected representatives), 14 wholly appointed and others are a mixture. This diversity of structure provides a range of options for consideration. It is not unusual to have the members of the second chamber not directly elected and it is generally accepted that this house is not supposed to be the same as the first chamber but should be complementary.
There is often controversy surrounding the second chamber and this is not surprising, because the second chamber is intended to provide grist and challenge to governments and first chambers. Some second chambers are the subject of challenge because of their composition, given the need to find a different logic to that of the first chamber. Reform is often discussed, but difficult to agree, and in thinking through solutions, these need to account for the peculiarities of the individual state.
There are plenty of negative examples of reform efforts failing. In 2013 the Irish government held a referendum to abolish the second chamber but it was lost and in 2016 Italy voted down reform. Whilst there is often agreement that reform of second chambers is desirable, there is rarely consensus on what it should comprise, and often latent public support for chambers that hold the executive in check, even if such chambers are considered flawed.
Perhaps the Canadian system is closest to our own. The Senate is entirely appointed, but is in a state of change with new additions being independent people rather than party nominees so that by attrition it has become more independent. This has brought its own problems as political parties bring discipline and having a majority of independents has led to an element of chaos and greater challenges in organising parliamentary business and decision making.
In our House of Lords there has been no large scale reform but instead piecemeal changes, mostly pursued by governments (1911, 1949, 1958, 1963, 1999), but for example in 2014 David Steel successfully introduced a private member’s bill creating the possibility for peers to retire.
There have been regular calls for reform over the years, but no consensus on what that should look like.
Recently Labour has commissioned Gordon Brown and a team of (unidentified) people to suggest various constitutional reforms and as yet he has not published his proposals but it appears that these will include a ‘second chamber of the nations and regions’. There are various models that could be used: Australia uses direct election based on its states, Spain has a mixture of direct local representation and indirect election from provincial legislatures, Canada allocates appointed seats to its provinces, Germany has a strongly federal second chamber (Bundesrat) which does far more than others to bind the nation together, but in practice due to the workload of state-level (Lander) ministers, much of the day-to-day work is done by civil servants. It was pointed out that just because people come from a particular region it does not mean they are representative. In the UK, there are added problems of the lack of devolved structures in England, and the devolution settlement itself, which includes few ‘shared’ policy competencies, as exist in many federal states.
It is generally agreed that we need to do something, and historical precedent suggests that this will be achieved by focusing on the most glaring anomalies in the current system. These include:
- curtailing, or abolishing, the prime minister's power of patronage
- the connected question of the ever-growing size of the House of Lords
Perhaps the best solution would be for two stage reform. The immediate reform must be to stop the uncontrolled power of the prime minister to put people into the Lords which is discrediting the House and weakening it.
Despite its evident challenges, the House of Lords functions reasonably well according to its desired objectives, to amend and improve and challenge, and not to overturn.
James Robertson
James Robertson said that the Sortition Foundation helps to run citizens' assemblies and is promoting them as a way of bringing in citizens to the decision making process at all levels. Its aim is to build trust in democratic institutions and there is debate building about how they could contribute to reform of the Lords.
He described how 100 citizens from across Scotland, who were brought together to engage in long, thoughtful deliberation around the future of their country, recommended establishing a second chamber run at Holyrood, run as a citizens assembly and called a "House of Citizens"
Sortition, the RSA, ERS and Commonweal have put together a plan here for a House of Citizens for Scotland and a series of options for its powers. Alongside agenda setting powers like considering petitions or establish public enquiries, they suggested that a House of Citizens could either be an:
Advisory chamber - whereby the HoC would consider the general principles of every substantive bill
A house of review - similar to the lords would have the power to amend or delay a bill
A legislative chamber - more like the Australian senate whereby both chambers have the power to introduce legislation, and all bills must pass through both chambers to become law.
The principles behind this must be that it would be proportionate although it would require big reform.
It was posited that a similar standing citizens' assembly could replace the House of Lords in Westminster
Sortition created this document to outline how it would work. Made up of around 325 members of the public, the House of Citizens would be selected, a bit like a jury, but ensure that it reflected the UK in terms of things like gender, age, race, disability, geographical location, level of education and income. They would be paid the same as MPs and sit for a specified time, up to two years, with a guarantee to return to their employment. Their identities would be protected and they would be anonymous.
Questions arose about the practicalities, for example, if they are being paid could they legitimately be expected to remain anonymous. The legislative process is highly complex and if they are to undertake reviews and amending of bills, it would require considerable training. Would the geographical spread create confusion with people used to representative thinking they were there to represent their constituency.
It was generally agreed that citizens' assemblies, if supported by government, should enhance and improve our democracy. However, representative government has evolved over centuries and to move away from this would require significant constitutional change and public education.
The Commission will be holding two more sessions with guest experts over the next month.
Submissions to the Commission with suggestions on reform are being reviewed and a synopsis will be posted on the website and the ideas will feed into the briefing being published early next year.